In Snoozie, Sunny, and So-So, a timid dog who has been feeling “so-so” for quite some time has a life-changing chance encounter with a pair of best friends, a cat who doesn’t like moving and a dog who’s afraid of the rain. This gorgeously illustrated chapter book tells a moving tale of finding support and joy in close friendships and opening yourself up again to face new adventures.

Touching on loss and childhood, poetry and color, and Maurice Sendak and animal companions, author Dafna Ben-Zvi and illustrator Ofra Amit speak with Enchanted Lion’s Emilie Robert Wong about how Snoozie, Sunny, and So-So came to be. In part two of the interview, which took place on December 31, 2020, Ofra and Dafna discuss their connection to Maurice Sendak, the liberating and transformative power of the imagination, and why difficult topics belong in children’s literature. (Read part one here on our blog!)

Snoozie, Sunny, and So-So’s final artwork coming together on Ofra's wall — *Snoozie, Sunny, and So-So*’s final artwork coming together on Ofra's wall

ERW: In the beginning of the book, the dedication says, “In memory of Maurice Sendak.” Why did you choose to dedicate the book to his memory, and what kind of connection do you feel to him, in terms of this book in particular, your work in general, yourselves personally?

DBZ: I’m glad you brought this up, because I just wanted to say a minute ago that Maurice Sendak once said that the only question that is interesting for him in writing is: How do children survive? How do you survive childhood? How do you survive the loneliness? How do you survive your helplessness, that you’re completely dependent on others, and on adults? How do you survive all the anger? How do you survive the anxiety? And I think one of his answers is through imagination.

So-So dreams of going to the moon with her new friends.

Imagination is the only space where you are not limited. With imagination, you are not limited by reality. Reality is difficult. But almost everywhere and all the time, we have this ability that is the ability to imagine. It’s one of the greatest things in life, that everyone, even if you are not a writer, can just close your eyes, and go elsewhere. You can be in space, or you can be in a land of magic: you can be elsewhere, anywhere. And it’s to this one of Sendak’s answers to the question of survival that I feel very connected. I identify with his answer, that imagination can help you survive.

OA: I also identify with Sendak for these reasons. And also, going back to what I said before: Sendak was once asked why he was creating and writing children’s books, and he said, “I don’t write children’s books. I write, and then someone says it’s a children’s book.”

ERW: Was his illustration style an inspiration for you as well, Ofra?

OA: Yes. Where the Wild Things Are was the first book to make me change the way I looked at children’s books. As a child, I didn’t have many children’s books, and I didn’t read. I know a lot of illustrators have childhood favorites, but I wasn’t reading much, and I don’t remember many books. I studied design and illustration, but I never thought about going into children’s books. I didn’t have any intentions to do so, and then I saw this book. And I saw what Sendak did in its pages, with the illustrations that grow bigger and bigger, and the atmosphere that it created, and it completely changed my perspective. It’s embarrassing, but I only saw Where the Wild Things Are when I was twenty-something; I didn’t know that book before.

In Snoozie, Sunny, and So-So, there are actually some homages to Sendak’s books. For example, people sometimes tell me that the night party reminds them of the dance in the woods (the wild rumpus) in Where the Wild Things Are. And there are also other little clues in Snoozie, Sunny, and So-So that you can recognize from his books that I included as an inside joke, but it’s not important to know the references to understand the story.

A full-spread, wordless illustration of Max leading the wild things in the wild rumpus (from Where the Wild Things Are by Maurice Sendak) — A full-spread, wordless illustration of Max leading the wild things in the wild rumpus (from *Where the Wild Things Are* by Maurice Sendak)

ERW: Did you always know that you wanted there to be those two full-page spreads at the end? Were those two images, the party inside during the day, and then outside at night, always a part of your vision?

OA: When Dafna wrote the book, she usually doesn’t tell me what to do, she doesn’t dare! But she said, “Here, when they have the party, I want no words, just illustration.” And we really wanted to do some sort of a gatefold, but it wasn’t possible for financial reasons for our publisher in Israel, so these illustrations are what I came up with. It’s an illustrator’s dream to be asked to do such a thing, with no letters or text that will interfere with the composition! So, it was really nice.

DBZ: Yes, this is a hell of a party! This is the heart of the party, when they dance and there are no words. Because you don’t need words in this moment; it’s only happiness!

OA: Yes, don’t talk, dance!

ERW: What inspirations other than Maurice Sendak do you see in your work?

DBZ: For me, there are Israeli poets, mainly Miriam Yalan-Stekelis. She was the first one who said that children’s poetry should deal with sadness and loneliness, and that it could truly heal.

OA: There are many artists and illustrators that inspired me. I cannot even start; it’s a very, very long list. Especially now with the internet, we’re exposed to so many artists... But if I really think, the main source of my inspiration is my childhood. For me, this is the source of the human soul in general; I feel like this is where it all comes from. If I think about my inspirations for drawing and illustration, I’m influenced by many artists, and it changes all the time. But really, it all comes from my very deep, forgotten childhood.

DBZ: I agree, I think childhood is the main source of creativity. It’s a time when we can be a child and an adult and a magician. All at once and all at the same time, I can be a real person and a queen and everything all together. And it’s not held in contradiction to one another: I can do both, I can be everything. And that is the main source of creativity, I think: to bring this ability back, to remember that I could once be myself and a queen and a fairy. For me, this is my main inspiration: when I’m writing, I remember, and I become a magician again.

So-So imagines she’s a magician to try to make a difficult decision.

[Dafna picks up the cat at her feet.]

DBZ: And this is Maurice. Maurice, after you know who.

ERW: Oh, she’s very pretty! Speaking of animals, do you feel like the story would have been different if it had been told with human characters instead of animals?

DBZ: Interesting question. I usually don’t write about people, I don’t know why…

OA: I think animals create a certain distance that is helpful. Also, for a child that is reading, who can then identify with an animal that is talking—it’s easier, I think.

DBZ: And also, I really feel very attached to animals. I always have at least one or two pets, I have cats and dogs… I think that I can identify with their dependency, that they’re so dependent on the goodness of others. As a child, I felt really dependent, I felt helpless.

Sunny surprises So-So by ringing her new friend’s doorbell!

And I was helpless because my mother was very ill, she had a mental illness. I had a dog that I got from my father when I was six, and she was my only and first good friend. I still think of her all the time today. Her name was Gypsy, and she was my first dog. I can only tell this next part once: I got her for my sixth birthday, and when I was about ten, my mother took her away, far away in another city. I was so mad and so sad, and I felt so powerless because I couldn’t do anything about it. And then after a month, I heard something at the door, and Gypsy came back! She came back to me, from another city, and my mother didn’t touch her again, and she was with us for many years after that.

For me, it was magic. I sometimes ask myself what would have happened if Gypsy hadn’t come back. I don’t know if I would still be so keen on magic; I now really believe that something that you have lost can come back to you. And maybe this is one of the reasons that I became a writer: to find ways to bring back to life things that you have lost. For me, it’s really the foundational experience connected to my writing. I feel that I was very, very lucky.

ERW: That’s so powerful. Thank you so much for sharing that, Dafna. To circle back, Ofra, you were talking earlier about how there’s a distance with animals, and that sometimes that helps children better identify with characters. Do you feel like there’s a different kind of freedom, or expressiveness, when it comes to illustrating animals versus illustrating people?

OA: Yes, it’s much easier for me. Drawing humans is much more difficult, I think because it’s too close to me. It’s easier with animals: it gives me more freedom, especially when I draw an animal that I know personally.

I mean, I know So-So. I could make her expressions really true and real and authentic because I know her so well. In the party scene, some friends of ours asked me to draw in their dogs, too. And I tried—there are some dogs there that are supposed to be them, but it’s not them, because I don’t know them well enough.

But yes, it’s easier for me to draw animals. I think it’s the same in writing, it gives you some distance. Not emotional distance, but it’s like when you write in the third person, instead of first person. It’s the same freedom that’s opened up, I think, with writing and with drawing.

ERW: Well, I’ve really loved talking with you two. Hearing more about both of you and your stories (and even meeting your pets!) has helped me connect with the book on a deeper level, and I hope the same will be true for our readers. What do you hope readers will discover in this book?

OA: I hope that they love So-So, Sunny, and Snoozie as much as we love them. Is that too much to hope? And I’m very proud that readers have the chance to meet So-So, I feel really attached to her.

DBZ: I really hope that children will enjoy reading it. The oldest of my children, who’s thirteen, doesn’t really like to read. I hope that children will enjoy reading my books. Reading is so important. As I told you before, my mother was very ill, but when she felt good, she used to read to me a lot. Reading is the main gift that she gave me, and I’m really thankful for this gift because it opened the doors of imagination for me.

For more information and to purchase Snoozie, Sunny, and So-So, visit the book page here.

And you can read part one of the interview with illustrator Ofra Amit and author Dafna Ben-Zvi here!

Snoozie opening her birthday presents with all her friends

And now… Enchanted Lion’s Ten Questions

1. What is your favorite word?

OA: “Mayim” (מָיִּם). It’s in Hebrew, it means water.

DBZ: For me, it’s maybe “Ima” (אמא). It’s the first word that you learn, it means “mother” in Hebrew. And you write it alef (א), which is the first letter in Hebrew (like the letter A), and then mem (מ), which is middle letter in Hebrew, and then alef again at the end.

OA: It’s symmetric: it’s the same if you flip it. And I just noticed that if you say “mayim” (water) many times in a row, “Mayim mayim mayim,” it turns into “Ima” (mother). So, our two words are connected!

2. What is your least favorite word?

DBZ: “Ba’al” (בַּעַל). It means “husband,” but in Hebrew, it actually means “owner” or “master.”

OA: Mine is “mitbach” (מִטְבָּח). It means “kitchen” but derives from the root “t-b-ch” (ט ב ח), which means “massive killing.” (They sure weren’t vegetarian back then…)

3. Do you have any real-life heroes?

DBZ: My mother, my father, and Maurice Sendak.

OA: My father, Maurice Sendak, and so many more.

4. What natural gift other than what you have would you most like to possess?

DBZ: I would like to compose and play music.

OA: I would really love to be a writer.

5. What would you say your life motto is?

DBZ: Always know that you don’t know.

OA: Always be in change and motion.

6. What is your idea of success?

DBZ: To find peace with yourself.

OA: Yeah, I think we think the same.

7. Are rituals part of your creative process?

DBZ: Yes, I have many rituals: I do the dishes before I write, and I must make sure that everything is clean, and many other things.

OA: It’s a little embarrassing, maybe (but not too much, so I can tell you), but I noticed that before a new project, I take the colored pencils out, and I arrange them exactly how they are in the catalog, all standing straight and ready like soldiers. It’s meaningless, you know, because a minute after I start working, it’s all mixed up.

8. What does procrastination look like for you?

OA: I read, and I go on Facebook and Instagram, pretending that I’m looking for inspiration. I play games on my phone, and I go do the laundry… There are so many things you can do instead of doing what you have to do. And I also feel bad about myself for doing those things. That’s how I procrastinate!

DBZ: Well, I love online shopping, I must admit!

9. How would you describe your monsters?

DBZ: Depression, for me.

OA: Not so much now as it used to be before, but a big audience.

10. What does earthly happiness look like to you?

OA: I think swimming and singing. I don’t sing so well, but I really love singing anyway.

DBZ: For me, I think writing.

Part 2: A Conversation with the Author & Illustrator of SNOOZIE, SUNNY, AND SO-SO